Now Ofsted’s new inspection framework is published, we interviewed Deputy Director of Schools, Matthew Purves, about what leaders and teachers can actually expect when they’re inspected post-September. Our conversation covers ‘deep dives’, interviews with SLT and conversations with children. Matthew also offers insight into what Ofsted have learnt from the consultation and piloting of the framework. A must-listen for anyone in school, offering practical advice and reassurance.
Caroline Pudner: Hello everyone. I'm your host Caroline Pudner. Now today's podcast with Matthew Purves, who's the deputy director of schools for Ofsted, continues our conversation with the inspectorate about their new inspection framework. Now as regular listeners will know, we recently spoke to Chief Inspector Amanda Spielman while the framework was still in its draft form, but I do know that many of our listeners – many school leaders and teachers – are keen to see what changes were made after the pilots and the consultation and also how they can best prepare for the changes in inspection and what the inspection process will actually feel like. I hope you'll find our conversation really useful for your curriculum work and preparation for inspection.
Caroline Pudner: So welcome to the podcast Matthew.
Matthew Purves: Hi Caroline. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast, I really appreciate it.
CP: Thanks for joining me today. Now, when I spoke to Amanda obviously the EIF (the Education Inspection Framework) was in its draft stage still. So what's happened since then?
MP: So it's quite exciting really. The draft has become a final set of handbooks and early in May we published those and they're available on Ofsted's website for anyone to see and – we'll probably get into this in the podcast – but they've changed a little bit from the draft versions because we got so many helpful comments from people in the sector: from leaders from teachers, governors and others that led us to make improvements here or there but the idea of publishing those in early May is that there isn't a rush for colleagues over the latter part of the summer term to become familiar with the handbooks. They're out there, colleagues can look at them and then know what's coming in September.
CP: Yes we've all read them, there's a lot on the internet about them, there's even slides aren't there – I know you've done a whole series of slides which are really useful, they're nice and short, you can get to grips with what the changes are – and you can listen to podcasts as well. There's all sorts of information because we're in that age now where everything's out there. I'll unpick the consultation in a moment, but I wanted to ask about the pilot because that's really interesting that you've piloted the new inspection process haven't you and wonder if you could tell the listeners a bit about the pilot?
MP: Well look, piloting has always been part of what Ofsted does, it's always been part of testing out inspection frameworks but I think what we've done this time is we've dialled it up to 11. So we've been piloting for four terms on this and every term it's become sharper and more directed as we get ready for the new framework. So we started with some pilots that were just testing out some of the ideas we were having for the framework. We'll cut three, four terms ahead to that and actually the process of practising the new inspection methodology that supports the judgments we reach, has become a quite defined methodology. So alongside the handbooks we publish something called ‘Inspecting the Curriculum’ which is our own note about how inspectors will go about inspection. And really it boils down to three or four stages: first of all working with leaders to form a top-level view of what's going on in the schools, so looking at the curriculum and the thinking behind that, thinking about what the schools provision is there and who it's for and through that conversation, particularly in preparation for the inspection, deciding where we're going to look in more detail and doing that collaboratively with school leaders. And that leads you into the second stage which we're calling deep dives. It's jargon, we know that, but we couldn't think of a kind of a better title and all that means really is in four or five or six areas of the school’s subjects areas of the school inspectors would do a much more intense look at what's going on there. And instead of that being just a set of lesson visits or just a set of looking at the books, it would start with a conversation with the leaders in that area so the curriculum leaders. And what that means is an inspector isn't walking into the classroom and just experiencing what they're experiencing, they have in their mind ‘what does the school expect to be happening here?’ You know, what do the curriculum leaders tell us this lesson’s place in the sequence of lessons is and then when we look at the work alongside curriculum leaders it's not about spelling or handwriting, not that it ever was that, but it's about how does that fit with where the school intends for pupils to be in that sequence of learning? Are pupils doing that work? And also conversations with classroom teachers and conversations with pupils and a deep dive is about saying ‘right, we're going to do all those things and we're going to connect them and we're going to connect them in a particular subject and then we're going to connect those four or five or six deep dives together, not to have a collection of subject judgments but overall to understand the quality of education that's being offered in the school.’ And that then takes you to the last stage which is bringing it all together and thinking ‘where else do we need to gather evidence?’ So it's starting with that kind of deep, rich look, bringing it all together and saying right okay well let's reflect over night, school leader, inspector, think about it and tomorrow where do we need to gather more evidence as we bring the inspection to a conclusion?
CP: Yes I remember when I spoke to Amanda Spielman I think she'd gone into one of the pilot inspections and spoken to a head teacher and she said the senior leader had a crystal clear vision of, and she could articulate, where she wanted the school to be and, you know, that's what you're looking for isn't it? It seems the intent stage and whether it's implemented or there's a really clear plan for it to be implemented?
MP: Yes and just in case a kind of myth arises there – because we seem to create myths as we go and we do our very best not to – it's not about the language, I guess and I think I've heard one or two people say either ‘well Ofsted will be fobbed off by the language that we use’ or ‘well if I just get the language right that's what will get it passed’ and that wasn't the point you were making but I think people worry about that. Actually we've been doing two years of training with inspectors about the curriculum and about the concepts there and we're looking at some really simple questions. We're looking at does the school – do leaders – have a really clear sense of what the end points are that they want pupils to get to in this subject? What are the key concepts that you can get them there and what order do you teach them in? So it's about having that conversation in whatever language the school uses. It's not about having the right language, it is about having thought really clearly about the what, about the content of education because that's why we're all in education isn't it?
That's what matters.
CP: Yeah it's right you mentioned jargon actually and you know whether people feel comfortable using certain words when actually it's the kind of bread-and-butter stuff of education is do you know what you want the children like you're saying the end points and how are you as a school getting them there I think that's really clear it's nice that you don't have a prescriptive way in which people are going to have to talk about that. I think that will reassure a lot of our listeners.
MP: That yeah and just to be really clear as well those end points aren't a mysterious thing either; it's not a secret kind of Ofsted view of where we want people to get. You know, inspectors are going out with the handbooks in one hand and the National Curriculum in the other and if you're a maintained school you have to follow the National Curriculum. If you're an academy you don't, but you have to be offering a curriculum of equal or greater breadth and ambition. So it's not our kind of obscure thing what the end point is. It's just thinking through the curriculum; where do you want your children to get?
CP: Yeah because I know a senior leader asked me to ask you what are the end points so it is something but it is, it’s there in the curriculum isn't it and it's for us to break it down in your school, where you want your children to be.
MP: What does it mean in my context and look I wrote with my own hands into the handbook that radically different approaches to the curriculum will be recognised positively by inspectors, so it's about applying that in your context and in line with your vision but it's about having thought that through really carefully and that being evident in what's happening in your school.
CP: Fantastic and just thinking about the piloting again Matthew. Did any of the piloting experience lead to any changes in the framework and what were they?
MP: Yes okay. Talking just in schools, and we go beyond schools, but talking just in schools. We’ll have done approximately 200 pilots by the time we go live with the new framework in September. We’re far past 150 now and we're heading to that final number. We've done those in all shapes, sizes, locations, grades of schools. So maintained nurseries, middle schools, first schools, junior schools, special schools, PRUs all of that and we haven't just gone into schools that are good we've actually gone into schools with different inspectors that sit on different inspection judgements just now. So we've really tried to see what this means in different contexts, A huge amount of that has then gone into inform this note that we published about inspecting the curriculum – this approach the ‘deep dive’ approach – but to relate it to the consultation, one of the things we consulted on was preparing on-site. Which I'm gonna say was not universally popular in what we said and actually it became clear throughout the consultation that schools and leaders didn't hear it in the way we intended which was to work collaboratively. Actually it felt like, well if you’re on-site, Ofsted, you must be inspecting. So we had to think, well what's an alternative? And actually what the pilot showed us was you can have an educationally-focused conversation on the phone. So before the inspection, instead of that phone call just being ‘well let's agree the logistics,’ let's have a conversation about what's happened since the last inspection and where are you and where are your strengths and weaknesses? And you know we're going to come and look at subjects and do deep dives, what sort of areas do you think we should look at? And when we think about these, it means that on the morning of day one of the inspection it's not a kind of surprise experience for everyone, the school and the inspector know where the focus is going to be. The right people can be in the room for the conversation and that really powerfully came out of the pilot and that's been working really well in the latest phase of pilots we’ve done to make sure that we're ready for this, because I don't want us to do anything without having tried it and I think that'll be a core part of the methodology going forward. One thing I would say is, that conversation might last 90 minutes, it might last less, it might just be all done in a chunk. So in some of the pilots the school leaders said look actually can we have a bit of a break? I want to go and bring in my history specialist or my maths specialist to have this bit of the conversation and that's the great flexibility of a phone call that you can say all right okay well I'll get on with the other bit of my preparation, let's have that bit of the conversation later, so it's flexible.
CP: Yeah. You mentioned the subject areas that you're going to have this ‘deep dive’ in. Is that something that you mutually agree then between senior leadership and the inspector?
CP: Okay. Have you been piloting that aspect of it as well so could a school then sort of decide which subjects they'd like you to look at throughout school?
MP: Yeah. They absolutely could and I think at the end of that preparatory conversation you'd probably find that neither the inspectors entire original plan nor the school’s entire original plan is the one that’s followed on the day, because actually there’ll be some subjects the school says ‘please will you look at this?’ and inspectors say ‘yes.’ And some where the inspector says ‘no, really I want to get under the skin of this.’ It’ll be a mixture of the two and that’s part of working together, collaborating on that inspection.
CP: And I know reading is a huge one isn’t it? You’re always going to be looking at reading throughout the school, which is great because without that you can’t access a wide curriculum so you’ve obviously really shone the light on reading haven’t you? So in terms of the pilot that’s still continuing right up until the end of term by the sounds of it? And then in terms of the consultation I read that you had about 15,000 responses?
MP: We did, yes we did.
CP: Goodness me! And I bet they’re all a complete variety of different opinions and from different sectors?
MP: Do you know what on many issues, yes but on the overall issue about do we have the focus right in this framework the response was overwhelmingly positive and the rate of ‘agree’ and ‘strongly agree’ from colleagues and others who responded was kind of three-quarters or eighty percent. It was really high and when I read through the free text comments, which is something we did, and there were 22,000 free text comments from all of that. On those questions about have we got the focus right the answer was overwhelmingly yes, we’re looking at the right things. Now the controversy then comes with things like on-site preparation and I’ve said what we’ll do with that. The proposition to inspect for two days for what we used to call short inspections for Section 8 and actually that was that was quite split but a big theme that came through on the free text responses was ‘but Ofsted if you’re going to get under the skin of quality of education, you need to take time to do it properly’ and that was the argument that ultimately held with us and that’s why for most schools we’ve gone with two-day section eight inspections. Except that a lot of the very smaller schools wrote in and said well we’ve got 90 pupils or we’ve got 30 pupils, feels a bit disproportionate doesn’t it Ofsted? And they were right. So for the very smallest schools we’ll stick with that one day Section 8. So all those sorts of comments really help to shape up the decisions that we made.
CP: Yeah that’s fantastic I know because we – Cornerstones – we have been working in a school with 40 pupils so two-day inspection would be a bit much to handle and you wouldn’t need it that’s what you’re saying. It’s doing what’s needed really to get under the skin of the curriculum and you certainly can’t do that in a very short amount of time even with a conversation beforehand with the curriculum lead and a senior leader.
MP: It’s not fair to the school, to the senior leaders and it’s not fair to the children and young people in that school. I don’t think the one day for most schools gives you that proper understanding.
CP: Okay so consultations fed into it, the piloting fed in. Something else I noticed about the piloting stage you’ve also been training obviously, having to train inspectors, in how to go about doing their inspections – it’s obviously a big shift for them. I mean who are Ofsted inspectors on the whole?
MP: Great question. So again I’ll look at the answer in schools terms. We’ve got something like 170 Her Majesty’s Inspectors, bit more than that. They’re obviously professional, full-time inspectors and then we have about 1,600 Ofsted inspectors in the school space and they are overwhelmingly, 70% are serving practitioners so they are school leaders and that’s their day job and they give us a certain number of days a year to inspect. And within that collection of Ofsted inspectors there are many who lead inspections and those who just team. And as part of the training in the piloting, we’ve made sure that all HMI and all Ofsted Inspectors who lead inspections have taken part in at least one of the pilots, usually more, but at least one of the pilots so that their experience of walking in on the 1st of September and the schools experience isn’t confusion. It’s having had an experience in a sense of what it would feel like to do this and then over the summer period in July and then September we’re offering a very intensive process of the final stage of our training. So we spent two years talking about the curriculum and the core concepts, because being on the same page about that is the most important thing to inform our practice. But the summer training is about, walking through together what it’s like to do this inspection, to get under the skin of things, to use from the pilots that model of the deep dives and let’s achieve consistency in our inspection through that. So that’s what’s next.
CP: Okay so this is obviously a very thorough process and like you say, it has been quite a while since you released the information about the curriculum and all your research, so inspectors as you say have had a lot of time to get on board with that and understand why it’s been such a significant shift in focus. So there’ll be some schools listening who may well be inspected in September under the new framework. Do you think they’re gonna really feel a difference and have you heard from the schools that are being piloted about how they feel about it?
MP: Yes so really pretty positive from the schools that have encountered the pilots. Full disclosure; we haven’t published reports or anything on those pilots, so of course it’s a kind of friendlier experience so you’ve got to take that into account, but really positive. But also I think at the heart of that saying this does feel, they’re bits of it that feel the same, So on safeguarding for example that feels like the same clear focus and that’s something we’ve really worked on. Leadership and management a lot of continuity, in behaviour a lot of continuity but on that core-curricular question the feedback is, this feels really different and one of those things is actually a teacher said to me ‘we spoke to inspectors a lot more than we have done on recent inspections.’ Because, of course, when you’re having the curriculum conversation talking to teachers is an essential part of that – it’s not just a leadership conversation. So the feedback from the inspections – in a good way – is it feels really different in the sense that curriculum conversation is absolutely at the heart of the new methodology. And one of the things that we always try to do as an organisation is inspectors don’t just go off and do it themselves but they bring senior leaders with them on a journey, they see some of the same evidence throughout the inspection and I think that’s been a really positive experience for some leaders on the pilots, because they’ve seen that curriculum lens on what’s going on and it’s maybe added other thoughts to their already very strong curriculum thinking
CP: And I suppose this practice is going to grow the more people experience inspections and the more inspectors experience inspections then that ability to get under the skin, do the deep dives, talk about curriculum it’ll gradually – maybe it’s even already happening, I think it is definitely with some schools – it’ll become more natural and more easier to do. I mean it could be that schools listening think well we have been talking about or we’ve been itching to talk about that and the schools that give us feedback can’t wait and are very like you say the feedback has been overwhelmingly positive from our schools about Ofsted’s new focus. They want to talk about and they want to think about the substance of education and so hopefully that’ll translate into a more meaningful inspection for them as well. Someone we haven’t mentioned is the children and I wondered if you could tell me a little bit about the conversations that inspectors will have with children, because I know the senior leader one is very important but they will be talking to children. I noticed you’ve done some training as well with inspectors on how to talk to children and what to ask them.
MP: Yes so we’re doing all of this for for the children and young people who are served by us and by schools. You’re right. We’re doing training on the conversation with children, young people. I mean let’s not forget that inspectors are serving leaders or HMI kind of experienced former leaders so there’s a bit that we don’t need to train because that conversation is part of what that what they’re used to. But what’s different is I think many of our conversations in the recent past have focused on some of the broader areas, the personal development type areas and they really matter. Things like values and ‘do you feel safe at this school’ and other issues around that and that’s got to continue but these conversations now will also be curricular conversations. So you know, I’ve witnessed it myself, a group of pupils from all year groups around the table talking to the inspector about language teaching in this school and their experience of it and what they understand from the curriculum. And what’s really important is inspector to apply a bit of that judgment about knowing that you get different responses from different pupils depending on how they’re feeling at a particular time and all those sorts of things, so you’ve got to take that into account, but also you get really rich information about the curriculum from that conversation. Particularly when you’ve been in the classes that they’ve been in and so there’s that there’s a common ground about what they’re experiencing. So yeah really important .
CP: And I suppose that gives that sense of continuity and progression as well if you have different children from different year groups. It’s all adding to that bigger picture isn’t it – of what’s going on throughout school so and I bet the children love to talk well most of them will love talking about it.
MP: at least one in every group that really loves doing it!
CP: Now Matthew, I’ve got a couple of questions from senior leaders if that’s okay cause they knew I was coming to talk to you. And a senior leader in Rotherham just wanted to know if you could clarify what inspectors will look for in terms of data? I know that there’s been a shift away from having to produce lots of internal data, but what will they be scrutinising when they come?
MP: It’s a great question and we’ve been really upfront about saying inspectors will not look at schools’ internal progress and attainment data. Now that’s really specific so actually they’ll be all sorts of conversations about attendance and other things where data will come into it just it, it just has to, but inspectors will not look at schools’ internal progress and attainment data. Now I think that’s been misheard in some places as inspectors will put blinkers on and walk round the school and not be willing to talk about anything as understood from data. That’s that’s not the case. So on the inspection conversation a vital question is – are inspectors asking about how children, young people are doing in the school? What are they learning? How are they progressing? How are they achieving? Now as a leader you draw on lots of sources of information to tell inspectors about that. Data is almost always one of them, hugely important for many. The key problem we have at the moment is that after having that conversation, sometimes the ring binder gets slapped on the table and the inspector and leader then go into analysing the school’s particular data system whether it be bought in from outside or self-generated. Well the point of which the conversation gets there is not a helpful conversation for the children in the school, because that becomes inspection as a data analysis activity rather than saying look that is your understanding head, senior leaders, of what’s going on in the school now let’s go out together and see it firsthand in the classrooms. So the key thing here is of course leaders should, be informed by their data, by other things, tell inspectors about it but inspectors are not going to get into the spreadsheets with you because the useful thing that we can do in children’s and your behalf is go and see that in the classroom and see whether that matches the understanding you have.
CP: Yes and I’ve read somewhere that you’d also said you’re interested in what the leaders do about that data that they’ve seen. If they know things are going well in certain areas and not in others and what you’re doing about it, you know what is your next decision going to be so it’s the use of data isn’t it?
MP: Absolutely and I hope this is going to have a positive impact on teachers workload and only leaders’ workload. It’s really obvious to me that teachers and leaders will always work incredibly hard but we want to take the pressure off to focus on some of the wrong things and give the space to focus on the right things and we hope this will take the pressure off producing or managing and using any data for us. Because if we’re not looking at it you can use it in the way that you want to for your school and look, we know that’s what hundreds and thousands of schools do anyway, but we know that some other schools feel the pressure to do something for Ofsted. We would always say don’t prepare for inspection don’t prepare for us and certainly don’t produce this data for us because we won’t look at it. Do what’s right for your children and young people and we’ll see that.
CP: I think that’s a really important message and I mean if you’re listening to this and you know this message anyway but you know colleagues who maybe would benefit from knowing this, it’s really important to get this message out because workload is such a potentially big issue. It’s not potentially a big issue – it is – and so this really could make a difference it would have made a difference to me as a teacher a few years ago if I didn’t have to have done so much of that internal data and I’m sure there’s many people listening who that will resonate with so that’s reassuring to hear. Many of our listeners listened to the podcast I did with Amanda Spielman where she said primaries often have the harder job in terms of the curriculum and you know having a curriculum in place, resourcing it and so on and so forth and reassuringly for us but also the schools that we work with, we realise Ofsted don’t have a preferred curricular model but if a school say buys in a quality curriculum with resources, when you come in as an inspector what would you like to see? What would you like to talk about with the school leaders would you say?
MP: So this is particularly the primary context you’re asking the question? Okay so we’ve been really careful to write into the handbooks the idea of adopting or producing a curriculum – we have no view about whether you draw from somewhere else or produce yourself that’s an educational decision that you reach so if you’re using a resource from elsewhere and it’s the right thing for your school, then fantastic and let’s go from there. I think where that sometimes goes wrong is an unthinking use of an external resource. Where it’s there and people follow it but without that thought about where we started about where are you trying to get you children and young people to. So it always has to be an intelligent use of that, but we’re really behind any adoption of a curriculum or production yourself. And in primary school I guess the other area that matters very greatly in the new framework is reading and you’ve touched on that already and just that we’ll always, when we’re inspecting, always, undertake a deep dive on reading. Kind of starting in the early years foundation stage and working up. Because the reality is, if children can’t read then they don’t have access to the riches that is the curriculum that they can they can learn.
CP: And vocabulary. It’s good to hear vocabulary talked about a lot in Ofsted’s work and wider, you know we I’ve heard so much about it because I know from having my own children with the use of technology, their level of vocabulary seems to be declining and I know there are studies – I can’t cite them at the moment – that children who are aged five and four who are entering school their level of vocabulary is less than it should be. And so if we’re talking about curriculum richness and knowledge and learning all these different subjects, reading and vocabulary are really important bread-and-butter aspects of primary school and then beyond.
MP: Well because reading isn’t just decoding I mean it is decoding we have to learn how to do that but it’s understanding the words and their meanings and vocabulary is important because it stands for the concepts that sit behind that vocabulary and you know whichever particular study you want to cite or not cite there is a definite word gap in terms of number of words heard and complexity of words heard between our most advantaged and our least advantaged pupils and everything we know about the way that the brain learns is the more you know the more you’re able to learn. So vocabulary, not in the sense of learning glossaries, but vocabulary in the sense of understanding words and their meanings and the concepts they represent, particularly at the early end of primary but then carrying on, that’s how we’re going to narrow the gap. That’s how we’re going to close the gap. Really giving that knowledge to young children so that then the gap doesn’t emerge. So yes it’s hugely important.
CP: Totally agree. it’s really good to see that and you know let’s hope that this focus on curriculum and allowing schools to have a kind of a longer view of where they want children to be and to gather the right resources to help them it will narrow that gap.
MP: Could I share one other thing that might be an emerging myth on primary schools in an Ofsted inspection and I just like to kind of scotch if that’s okay? Which is when we talked about the deep dive methodology than the new approach to inspection I used the word subject quite a lot and I hear one or two primary colleagues worrying that Ofsted will expect to see a secondary-style curriculum in a primary school and I just want to say that’s absolutely not the case. Topic teaching is a big part of many primary schools there are many different approaches and Ofsted inspectors will inspect what they find. The way you design your curriculum is what we’re going to inspect. So when we talk about subject in primary, we’re thinking about the disciplinary knowledge of a subject which might be taught through a topic or it might be taught through a subject or whichever way, but we’re looking at when you cover the Romans and you think you’re covering a history element are you covering the history bit of that or is it something else that looks like history because it’s about the Romans? So it’s topic-based teaching, subject-based teaching that’s all absolutely fine but inspectors will be wanting to get under the skin of – is the disciplinary knowledge relating to that subject there?
CP: Well that’s a great myth to bust because I’m sure there are people who have worried that they have to timetable all the subjects in, all distinctly. Some schools do that and that’s fine and they can they can do that.
MP: Well look I mean we’re very keen that all that content is taught and I think sometimes there’s a risk, particularly at the end of Key Stage two that some of it gets lost in the move towards SATs but we don’t expect to see it timetabled in a particular way no don’t do that for Ofsted.
CP: Well thank you ever so much matthew you’ve honestly. You’ve busted a lot of myths that may be out there but I mean your message from Ofsted is really clear, not just on this podcast but there are many places that our listeners can go and read the framework, the handbooks. That’s interesting actually, even if you’re not a senior leader I think the teachers to go into that and have a look at the handbook and the framework and also the research that’s gone into it as well if you’re interested in finding out why the curriculum in the first place and what you’d discovered at Ofsted and the people you’ve talked to. It’s also very interesting to hear that from an educational point of view.
MP: And can I just add to that I get a lot of emails from companies offering to train me on the Ofsted Inspection Framework which I think is jolly decent of them but I probably don’t need and I also wonder where they got their information from because they’re not people we’ve interacted with. So there’s a lot of material out there that might not be informed in the way that you and I are from having this conversation. So we have put for free on our website, essentially, the training that inspectors have received about the curriculum. So we did a half-day seminar we videoed it. We broke it down into manageable chunks. That’s all available for free so if you want to know what Ofsted thinks about the curriculum then you want to really dive into it, it’s there for free on our website.
CP: You don’t need a middleman, this is all about actually seeing what you’re saying and the message is straight from you.
MP: We don’t want to be mysterious or have some secret version of the truth it’s right there for everyone to use and we’d urge people to look at it. And if you have an attention span like mine we also did some kind of two-minute videos that go on top of that which are the key concepts in the framework so whatever level you want to engage with it’s there for free in the Ofsted website.
CP: Brilliant and I’ll put a link, actually on the website with this podcast, I’ll put a link to those. Those short videos are really useful actually and that’s how I came across you Matthew because and now happily we’re here now doing the podcast. You know you talk about knowledge and skills there’s reading all the main sort of themes and issues that are brought up in the new framework and for leaders and teachers to think about and they’re nice and short, get to the point they are a really good watch. No it’s really clear, that’s what we need I think in education. It’s nice clear simple straightforward advice that you know you can get on and do and without a middle man sort of trying to explain it when there’s no need to so thank you again Matthew for your time.
MP: of course thank you.
CP: And thank you the listener for joining us today. I hope that’s given you lots of food for thought and reassured you as well if you’re expecting an inspection come September and onwards and I’ll put all the links that Matthew’s mentioned at the bottom of this podcast on our website so thank you until next time it’s bye from me.
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